#3 - If We Can See It… with Screenwriter Amy Fox
Transcript from Interview #3 - If We Can See It... with Screenwriter Amy Fox
Welcome to the I ALSO Want Money podcast, where our mission is to democratize, demystify and demasculinize making money. I'm your host, Nicole Kyle, and I'm here with my co-host, Sophie Holm and ally, Harrison Comfort.
Harrison : 0:28
Is anyone going to believe that I'm the one that knew about this movie?
Yes. You are a film buff, Harrison.
And a feminist.
Just backing up a little bit. A big part of our mission here, at I Also Want Money is talking about not just the hard facts about investing, but all of the societal, emotional, and psychological factors around the decision to invest. And we all know that film, television, the books you read, and pop culture - they all shape society. They all shape the way we think. For that reason, today we actually have a screenwriter on the podcast.
Our guest today is Amy Fox. She's an experienced screenwriter. She's written for both film and television. We've asked her on today because she is the chief screenwriter behind the film Equity. Now, Equity is your typical Wall Street genre film. But in many ways, it is atypical because it's lead is a strong willed, complex female protagonist, investment banker. And the film follows this character, Naomi. It follows the trials and tribulations she experiences as both a banker and, frankly, as a woman on Wall Street. One of the great things about the film Equity is that it's as much a thriller about Wall Street as it is a very feminist statement. It really speaks to - we very rarely see characters like Naomi on screen - and that's what we're gonna talk to Amy about today.
Well, the producers are women. The actors, the main actors are primarily women. The screenwriter is a woman. It's primarily women-led.
Harrison : 2:13
All women, everything.
Yeah, so with that welcome, Amy Fox, welcome to our podcast. Thanks for being here, Amy.
Amy Fox: 2:22
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Amy. One of the things that struck us about the film is that there aren't too many films like it, unfortunately. In your opinion, Amy, why aren't there more films like Equity out there?
Amy Fox: 2:38
That's a really good question. I wish there were. It's a real lens into the state of women in film, in general. Because Wall Street movies are very popular. Wall Street movies make money, so we're not dealing with a genre that has any problems being successful, commercially or otherwise. But why had no one thought to make a movie about women in that world since basically, Working Girl, which was the last one, and really more of a romantic comedy? It's a very good question, and I think the reasons for that would be found in all the research that the Geena Davis Center and other places have done about where we see women on screen, what kinds of roles we see them in. Whether that's largely [unconscious] bias, we just don't see women in these roles that deal with power and money in business. It's starting to get a little better. Television is getting better numbers than film at the moment. There's actually really great book. I would love to plug that a friend of mine, Naomi McDougall Jones just wrote. It's called, Dismantling the Gods of Hollywood, and it is about this very thing. It's a very comprehensive look at what has happened to the depiction of women in film. I think that the men that were largely writing, directing, producing Wall Street movies were just sort of unconsciously filling the roles of the secretaries and the prostitutes with women, not thinking that we might see women in another role.
Amy, you're so right and thank you for bringing up the Geena Davis Institute there because I'm very familiar with their If She Can See It, She Can Be It campaign. I'm a huge fan of the Gene Davis Institute's work, and what really resonates with me is this idea that film, TV, what we see in culture media, they shape what women and girls believe their possibilities are. So having films have been devoid of these characters, like Naomi from your film, maybe a huge contributing factor in why more women aren't comfortable investing, aren't comfortable in these Wall Street roles, right? It's s a real dynamic at play there.
Amy Fox: 5:16
Yeah, and I'm so glad. I'm such a fan of what you're doing with the podcast and [am] really glad if the fictional narratives that exist can support that work.
Amy, we have to talk about that incredible monologue from Naomi at the alumni event. For those who haven't seen the film, I'm going to read out what Naomi says, she says: I like money. I do. I really do like money. I like knowing that I have it. I grew up in a house where there was never enough. But I'm not going to sit here and tell you I only do what I do to take care of other people. It is okay to do it for ourselves, for how it makes us feel. Secure? Yeah. Powerful? Absolutely. I'm so glad it's finally acceptable for women to talk about ambition openly. But don't let money be a dirty word. We can like that, too. I just got chills. Amy, I've got to say that monologue is probably the only time I've heard a woman talk so unapologetically about her love for money. And quite honestly, when I was listening to that, I felt if we had more characters on screen delivering monologues like that, more women would be investing, more women would be embracing that turning money into money is okay. We might not even need this podcast if that was a more frequent occurrence in scripts, in film, on screen. So help us understand. What was it like writing that particular monologue?
Amy Fox: 6:56
Thank you. It also came from a real conversation. It was actually one of the very first women that I interviewed. It was a phone interview. I never met her face to face. And, I talked to a few women and I've been reading about, all of the sexual harassment and just some of these environments and how tough they are, and how tough they were. particularly 30 years ago. So I had a woman on the phone who had started back when Naomi would have started and she was sharing some real horror stories with me about sexism she'd experienced. And I said, so what got you through all that? Like, how were you able to stay with it? And coming from the theater world, the answers you would hear in the world that I inhabit would be something about strength of character. Or my meditation practice got me through or, whatever kind of centred things people use. And this woman just flat out said, of course I stuck with it. I like money. I found it so refreshing. I'd never, like you said, I never heard a woman declare that without any apology, or qualification, and I just kind of loved that it was the first thing she went to. She didn't say, oh, you know, it was my yoga that got me through the sexism. No, she said I did it because I wanted money. And as long as I made money it was worth it. I just thought that was sort of revolutionary because my jaw dropped. And so I knew that I had to have that moment, and then it just sort of naturally built into a monologue where she was really able to claim that for herself. Because I think that women are - you do hear more women saying like, oh, well, it was a way for me to take care of my family or, you know, to pay off my parents mortgage, and that's all really wonderful - but with the original Wall Street movie we had the greed is good speech. It was never meant to be a heroic speech, although it was taken by many as a heroic speech. But I was interested in why Gordon Gekko gets to say that and men are like, yeah! And women don't.
One of the things I found really freeing about Naomi's monologue there, is that there's no qualifiers. She's really straightforward about [liking] money. And that's so unusual, but it really struck me because even if I think about my own life, and if I were to have a conversation with my friends with a similar theme, I'd probably say something like, I know it's bad to say this, but I like money. There would be that qualifier. So it was just really powerful the way it was written,
Amy Fox: 9:46
And also, that's something that was a huge lesson for me in writing the script because it was again something one of my producers caught. My producers were interviewing a lot of women as well. And one of them called me after a few drafts and she said, you know, Amy, the women that were interviewing... they don't qualify anything they say. They don't say sort of, they don't say a little bit. They don't say, oh sorry, when they misspeak. And the women you're writing, do say those things. And I, of course, realize it's because I say those things. And so I went through the script, I took out every single qualifying word, and the experience of doing that was so powerful that it completely changed the way that I speak. And to this day now, because I am a teacher, I'm constantly reminding my female students not to qualify and not to say, sort of, not to say - if they start on the wrong thought not to say I'm sorry. It's just this constant way in which women make themselves smaller, and the women in this field have learned not to do it. And we can really learn something from them.
I, for one, need to be much better at not filling my language with qualifiers and filler words. So it's definitely a big lesson for me. Amy, could you just talk a little bit about the process of developing the movie Equity?
Amy Fox: 11:14
Sure. So the original idea came from a woman named Sarah Megan Thomas, who is an actress and a producer. And she had joined forces with another actress, producer, Alicia Reiner, and they had launched a production company called Broad Street Pictures.
Sarah Megan Thomas also plays Erin in the movie.
Amy Fox: 11:36
Yes, that's right. And Alicia Reiner plays Samantha, the lawyer. So their goal as a film company was to create more films about where we would see women in these roles where we don't know we see them. And we would also involve women behind the cameras, women writing, directing, producing all of those roles as well. Sarah's husband, ironically, her husband works on Wall Street. She does not, but through him, she kept meeting these women that worked on Wall Street and sort of meeting these really fascinating, dynamic women. And she, just like a light bulb, went off. And she's like, why don't we ever see these women in the portrayals of Wall Street? So the idea kind of came out of that experience, and she and Alicia contacted me. I had worked with them previously as a writer on theater projects. They asked me if I'd be interested in writing the script, and I immediately was. And the three of us worked on it for several months before anyone else got involved. Probably more closer to nine months or a year, really developing the script. And I didn't have any background in finance at all. I had never worked in the field. I was not an independent investor. My brother had always worked in finance, and so I knew a little bit about it from him. So I knew that I had to first off just educate myself, and I had the luxury of having some time to develop this script. I gave myself about two months to just research and not even worry about writing. And during that time, I just embarked on, first reading everything and get my hands on talking to people. One of the first things I found when I talk to people, I breached out over my social network and just said anyone who works in finance. I started talking to people in what I found is, at first, I couldn't understand most of the words that were used, and the vocabulary and the buzzwords were so intense. And what I also realized talking to these people is that they were in this little bubble where they didn't even realize that someone might not know what those words meant. So that was a wake up call for me and them. And I would say, could you, like, slow down and try to explain what these words mean? And they just couldn't. And so I just started writing on the phrases like knowing that at some point I would know what that phrase meant, and I would want to incorporate it in the dialogue because this is obviously how these people spoke. But one of the first things I did in terms of figuring out my story was immediately in talking to all these finance people, I immediately learned the rather obvious, and yet I didn't know it, but the sort of obvious thing that there are different finance worlds. And when I said we want this woman to be very successful, the first question people asked me was, is she a broker? Is she a trader? Is she an investment banker? Is she in sales, trading or IB? And in addition to learning just the ins and outs of finance and what actually happens day to day, I wanted to learn about the gender dynamics in that world. And so again, I did a lot of reading. But mostly I just interviewed a lot of women who either currently worked in finance or had. I learned so much about that world. And and there were really extreme stories of sexual harassment, and some of the shenanigans that went on and with strippers coming to the office, things like that you hear about. But there were also much, much more subtle stories about people that just felt that their gender had day-by-day influenced how they were perceived, What the playing field was, what advantages they were given. And those stories were really interesting to me.
Harrison : 15:39
How did you go about prioritizing those subtle experiences that you wanted to highlight? When I think about the scene where Erin gets called to the hotel by her client and she tries to talk about work and he says, you know, if I wanted to talk about business, I would have called your boss. That was just so gutting to see, Honestly, I found it disgusting.
Amy Fox: 16:01
And, you know, what's interesting is that moment is subtle, but it's actually probably one of the most obvious moments in terms of gender in the film. What I discovered, and this is not a comment on you at all, but what I discovered just anecdotally of so many friends that I know that went to see the film with with their partner, a man, the women would come out and say, Oh, my God, the sexism that you know she encountered every day... and frequently the guys who are like respectful, educated, woke guys would say what do you mean, like this moment? And she would say every moment! What we found is it's that there's a language among women of these really subtle things that happen every day that undermine you, and that a lot of men didn't even pick up on those as viewers until they had a woman pointed out to them. And, this may have shifted, actually, because this film and the whole process was pre me-too. The conversation on these things was different at that time. But just everything from - One of the big things that I heard in these interviews was that women are if they are given a chance to succeed, they get one chance. And that if you have a misstep or a mistake or a failure as a woman, it's much harder to move on and get that next chance. And that was where we built the idea from the very beginning of the film that Naomi already has this failed IPO behind her. So she's already had that one mistake, and so she's kind of on a precipice in terms of, if this next one doesn't go well, she's not going to get another shot, whereas a man in her position might.
we can't fail upward, right?
Amy Fox: 17:48
Yes. So that was one thing we wanted to build in.
Harrison : 17:53
It's not your year.
Amy Fox: 0:00
Harrison : 17:53
That was such a slap in the face when he said that.
It was a slap in the face, and it was also this is a preordained path. These gods, these guys on high, have set out for you. And it felt, unfortunately, pretty realistic to me.
Harrison : 18:08
Yeah, and there was this omitted, and it never will be.
Amy Fox: 18:10
Yeah. When I would interview people, I would say, okay, obviously, unless you worked at a really, crappy place, I'm assuming that when it was time for your performance review or promotion time, that nobody said to, we're not promoting you because you're a woman. It's like no one was going to be that overt. So what would they say? And people have told me it's these kind of benign phrases, it's not your year or a big one is they'll tell women, oh, you have sharp elbows, which means you're just a little too aggressive or assertive, you know? And there were these buzzwords that would come up, that you would hear, and they were gendered, but not explicitly. And so what was helpful for me, because I had never worked in that world. But I have worked in other worlds. I've worked in academia and I've worked in the theater business, and I worked in the film and television business. And what was really helpful for me is to realize the commonalities of what women experience across the board. And when I would hear a woman in finance describe how she was spoken to or treated, I would often see a parallel to something I had experienced myself. And so I was able to really get inside of that, even though it wasn't my specific job. The one that really struck me the most, was when a woman said to me, the biggest difference for men and women in this field is that when something gets messed up or there's something doesn't succeed the man will get mad at someone else and the woman will get mad at herself.
Amy Fox: 19:51
And that's obviously not true in every single case, but it seems like a very common tendency in every field. That was why I had that scene with Naomi and Michael, where they talk about that. And he's like, you can't keep torturing yourself over this mistake. I wanted to illuminate that difference between men blaming someone else and women blaming themselves, because that's a way in which women hold themselves back when they hold themselves to an unattainable standard.
Yeah, that scene really resonated with me. I know I've had many partner interactions where I'm getting angry at myself or something, and my male partner is trying to talk me out of that. We, as women, very much do internalize these things while men seem to externalize them. I think, though, that scene is just an example of the many brilliant ways in this film that you depict a woman's experience, and you so eloquently say in the script, these really delicate moments of sexism. For example, coming back to Harrison's earlier point, when the client says to Erin, you know, if I want to talk business, I would have called Naomi. The implication there, basically, being you're too pretty to talk business, too. You know, I was really glad to hear that was a revelation for Harrison, right? Coming back to his earlier point. But for me, as a woman, obviously I witness that, see it, and I think, yep, that's what it's like. So I just think it is a testament to your writing, Amy, in that the film is so authentic in telling stories that are uniquely female experiences.
Harrison : 21:35
I'd also like to talk about the chocolate chip cookie scene.
Harrison, wait! That's my favorite scene you're stealing with under here.
Harrison : 21:42
Harrison : 21:44
Thank you. As any analyst on Wall Street has likely experienced, I've been berated many times in the context of work. Probably my most absurd experience was when I did not put enough milk in a gentleman's coffee who had specifically asked for it to be khaki-colored. And what I loved about the cookie scene is you had a gender role reversal because clearly I have been on the receiving end of an older guy getting pissed off for whatever reason, but I had never seen a woman doing it. So that role reversal from a gender perspective was objectively awesome to see.
Just because Harrison jumped straight in... For those who haven't seen the film, the chocolate chip cookie scene in question... it's the day of an IPO. Naomi is stressed for a variety of reasons. Her colleagues suggest that she eats something, and suggest a salad. I won't get into the gender stuff about the salad. But, she says, no, I want what those guys want. These guys were eating these massive chocolate chip cookies. So a male underling runs out to get Naomi a chocolate chip cookie, and when he brings it back to her, she realizes, she looks at it, and she complains. She's like this chocolate cookie does not have the same amount of chocolate chips as yours. Yours were oozing with chocolate, and you want me to be satisfied with three measly chocolate chips in this cookie. She basically has a breakdown, and lashes out on this underling... I think, obviously, all the anger that had been building up about not getting what she deserves. So that's the scene, in summary. I like the chocolate chip cookie seen because it basically perfectly symbolized the plight of women in the workplace. So I mean, they gave Naomi this chocolate chip cookie that has three chocolate chips. The pickings are meager. They expect her to be satisfied with it. I mean, the flashbacks I had to my own salary negotiations. It's almost as if when your employer says, yeah, we're giving you a 3% merit increase and you're like... that's the chocolate chip cookie you want me to be satisfied with!? It's crazy. So next time I go into a salary negotiation, I am channeling big chocolate chip cookie energy from Naomi and that scene.
Amy Fox: 24:07
I love that. Here's the thing. That scene was 100% based on a true story, it is a true story. Pretty much every word of it is a true story, we were told. And it's funny because some people thought - would sometimes hear the comment and go: it's too big. No, people don't really scream like that. Well, you know, they do...
Harrison : 24:26
For sure, they do...
Amy Fox: 24:28
It was exactly what you're talking about. It was a woman who - it was a real thing that happened. She had that meltdown. But it obviously did bring to the surface these feelings about scarcity, and the piece of the pie that she'd been getting. What was kind of great about it is that we were pretty late in the script process.... I think we had maybe already cast or we were close to it. I was on the 15th rewrite of the script.
Harrison : 0:00
Amy Fox: 25:01
Well, there were a lot. I mean, there always are. I'm a perfectionist. But Sarah called me because she had just interviewed someone - actually it might have been. Alicia. One of the two women called me and they had just interviewed a woman who had that story, and they were like, listen, we have to use this story, and I was like... no, no, we already have enough big emotional moments. And she was like, listen to the story! And when I heard it. I was like, Oh my God, it must go in the movie!
I think the movie Equity just has so many great and unique stories that are told from a woman in finance perspective. And I think a lot of people will resonate with different characters, depending on where they are in their life. For me, I relate very much to Erin, her pregnancy and kind of all of the thoughts and feelings around that. Being in my late twenties, that's definitely something that's on my mind. I tend to share Equity with a lot of my girlfriends, saying this is just such a great movie in depicting some of these stories that we all resonate with. But actually, Harrison... we need you to send this to all of your guy friends.
Amy Fox: 26:09
Yeah, men like the movie, which I am happy about because I don't want it to feel like a lecture. No, they really enjoy it on the level of like a Wall Street kind of suspense movie. But they also - I think it's so important that it not just be a movie that women watch. Pregnancy, maternity or the choice not to have children, which, frankly, most of the women who reached the level of success Naomi had in her generation did not have children because they knew that they would not reach that level of success. There are exceptions, and it was really important to me to show that it was a choice. That she was okay with that choice. I thought it was a little too obvious to see a woman like thinking, oh, I could have had a family. You know, I wanted to show a woman who said, no, that was my choice. I didn't want that. I wanted this, and it was in a time when I couldn't see how to have both. Still, a lot of women are not able to really balance both. I think finance is such a macho field, I don't mean macho in a male sense, but it's a field where there's no vulnerability. There's no time off. There's no Oh, I feel sick. Another theme we did explore, but ended up being cut out of the movie due to time and other things was we had also some scenes where Naomi had some doctors appointments that she'd been putting off and had a bit of a health scare because we heard from men and women alike that there's no time to take care of yourself or your family. So as a woman... as a man, frequently, you can turn that responsibility over to your wife, if you have one. As a woman, you really have to figure out, how are you gonna show up every day acting like you don't have that baggage as it looks like? How are you going to convince everyone that you're going to be there in the trenches no matter what's happening with your womb or your child. It's a real struggle.
Harrison : 28:21
I mean, to be honest, that's nothing that I've even considered before. How did your approach to money change after working on this movie?
Amy Fox: 28:31
It did, to some degree. I think not as much as I would like, and I'm going to have to listen to your podcast! Yes, it's ironic because I will be totally transparent and say that, in my own house, before writing the movie we had a very kind of typical gender... my husband likes investing, he enjoys it. He knows a lot about it. It was never something I knew as much about. I was sort of happy for him to take the reins on that. And of course, as soon as I started writing the movie. I was like, Oh, God, that has to change immediately, you know? And we definitely fell into our own pattern, but, it remains a goal of mine to continue to learn more and become more empowered financially. And I will say that I started working in a television writers' room. I was in Los Angeles for the last nine months writing for an ABC show, the Conners, and a huge motivation to take that job was that it was going to shift the dynamic in our family and make me the breadwinner, at least for a time. I've always earned money from teaching and from my writing as well, but, my husband's always earned more, and therefore, the kind of financial decisions of our family have rested more with him. And I thought it was really important to the gender dynamics in our family to give that a flip. So it's been really interesting and really empowering to see what that shakes up...
I'd be curious. In the process of emerging yourself into the finance industry as part of your research for the movie Equity, how many, and what parallels can be drawn to the arts and entertainment industry?
Amy Fox: 30:19
So many parallels. I mean, that's one of the main things I learned doing this film is that these gender dynamics in the workplace are true in every workplace. If you know the number of women in leadership in CEO or executive positions across industries, pretty much every industry hovers around 18 to 20%. And that's true whether you're talking about finance, law, medicine, or arts. And so many of the experiences described underneath the specifics, the question of performance reviews, the question of how things are perceived, the question of sexual harassment or being sort of perceived in a in a romantic way as opposed to a business way. All of that is true across the board. In the arts, it is a little different because the arts... I think in the arts, in some ways it's more insidious. That's because the arts like to wear this hat where it's like we love each other. We don't do this stuff for money. We do it for humanity. We're about telling stories. Everyone has a story, but, I think that frequently there's a lot of the same stuff going on underneath that talk.
Harrison : 31:34
I think the film industry and Hollywood are super culpable in this. When you have statistics like 90% of conversations between two women in a film are about men, how can you say that Hollywood's not culpable in perpetuating some of these stereotypes?
Amy Fox: 31:53
No, it's very true. And luckily there have been, post me-too, especially, there have been many more people writing and talking about that. The book I mentioned earlier, which I didn't get the whole title... the whole title is the wrong kind of woman. Sorry, the wrong kind of women inside our revolution to dismantle the gods of Hollywood. That book was just published this year and goes into the history of how that came about in film. There's a really interesting analysis of why television is a better place for female creators and female actors. They're still not perfect by any means, but they're doing better than the film business. But there's some really interesting reasons why. There's also a movie, a documentary, that came out called This Changes Everything, which is a really important film about again, how those dynamics have affected the film industry. And as you guys said earlier, the whole if you see it, you can be it. What these books and these analyses have started talking about is that this is not just frivolous entertainment - that there are many, many scientific studies about the way in which what we watch influences our choices in life. And so to have this kind of dominant cultural narrative that we also export to other countries. With that kind of inequity, it really changes the dynamics of the society. And when you start to shift, what people see that also changes the dynamic in a good way. Here's an example. The weekend that Equity was opening in New York, which was, a few years ago, in 2016. I had been on Facebook, kind of starting a rally, a bunch of people to go and see it. You know, I had some really nice groups of people saying like, Oh, we're all gonna go see Equity opening weekend. The opening numbers matter. And then it turned out that the movie Bad Moms was also opening that weekend. A lot of my friends are moms, and all of a sudden I saw all over Facebook, huge networks of people.... like I was gathering groups of maybe 10 to go see Equity. And then it was like 45 of us moms are going to see Bad Moms and I wrote on Facebook. I just said, I don't know how many of you know this, but Bad Moms is written and directed by men. So you might think it's this kind of girl - I mean, I don't know if you'd think its feminist - but you might think it's like girl power! Let's go see moms doing crazy things, but it's a version of what moms are created by men. And if you want to see a version of what women are created by women, you could also see this movie. But what surprised me when I posted that, was how many women wrote back and said, it's never occurred to me. If the movie's about women, I assume it's made by women, which is hardly ever the case.
Amy Fox: 34:45
It never occurred to them to see who the writer and director was. Same thing with the Oscars. It's gotten a little better, but because there's more visibility. But people often think, oh, there's nothing strange about women. Look at all those women, you know, accepting the award for best actress like those movies were about women. But they were most frequently written and directed by men. And this year, there were no female directors nominated, as people know. And there was, I think, one woman out of 10 for screenwriting.
It comes back to that saying, we need to vote with our feet, right? So if we can,aAs viewers and consumers of film and TV can get smarter about who is writing, creating, directing and acting in these stories and support those ventures, I think we're going to see a lot of, hopefully more, sweeping change.
Amy Fox: 35:40
Yes, and if you're looking for that, like I said, there's been such a growth of advocacy. I mean, all you have to do is go like films by women directors, and you'll get an amazing list of stuff to look at. So it's not hard to find, if you set an intention for yourself to support it in that way.
Amy, in the interest of wrapping up... one of the things that we feel really strongly about at the podcast is that the next wave of dismantling the patriarchy is going to be closing the gender wealth gap. And I say that because we've seen so much progress around the me too movement, in terms of bringing awareness and conversations to sexual harassment. And for us, the impetus behind this, the I also want money podcast, is this idea that the next frontier is... I also want more. I also want money. Now, with that in mind, Amy, I'm gonna ask you to do something a little bit creative here, putting a little bit on the spot. If you could put yourself back into the brain of your character, Naomi. What I also statement do you think Naomi internalized in order to become the boss woman who's unapologetic about her love for money and killing it on Wall Street?
Amy Fox: 37:00
We have the I like money. She's already OK with saying that. But I think what goes along with it is I also love this job. Because that was something that is really important. I'm a really ambitious woman myself, and it's really important for me to make it clear that I love my career. And I think that's another thing women have a hard time claiming, especially once they have children. It's like this idea of like, Oh, I did that until I had to... my life became more balanced when I had this family. It's like, no! Some women love not being balanced. We have a sort of workaholic capitalist culture, and that has its own issues. But within that culture, women can also want to be super ambitious and sleep three hours a night and be at the office all the time. Like that's also something we can claim.
Yeah, I love that as a workaholic myself. It's definitely something that I relate to very much, too.
Yeah and Amy, your point... it's OK to claim that, is a big part of the message of Equity and Naomi's journey. So thank you so much, Amy, for taking the time today to speak with us. We really enjoyed the conversation, really found it thought provoking for sure. To all of our listeners out there, go and buy, stream, see Equity.
And the Conners!
Yes, definitely. See the Conners and thank you again. Amy, it's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you for listening. If you like what you're hearing, join us in the #IALSO movement. This means, take to your social platforms and post a #IALSO statement. Follow us on Instagram at IALSO podcast. And, of course, subscribe. This podcast is produced by Harrison Comfort, and the theme tune is by Malin Linnea.